When do I get the right odds to call?

[jimmer]

I'm a little confused on the right odds to call with a pocket pair.

At what stage do I techically get the right odds to call?

Do i get the right odds to call in this case?

Would I get the right odds if the BB raised $2 or $3 or $4?

If I'm not on the right odds to call now, how much would the BB have to raise to give me the right odds?

jbdb3: posts small blind $0.10
godfather_AA: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jbdb3 [4c 4h]
Boew: calls $0.25
Alameda22: folds
Boombasi: folds
knakeddefguy: folds
Merdah Lorr: folds
Maggy54: folds
Marco296: folds
jbdb3: calls $0.15
godfather_AA: raises $1 to $1.25
Boew: folds
jbdb3: ?????

[supafrey]

there's some missing information..

[jimmer]

there's some missing information..

Do you mean the stack sizes? Because I removed them on purpose.

Would it help if they were included or is there something else you are on about?

[gumbie]

there's some missing information..

Do you mean the stack sizes? Because I removed them on purpose.

We need the stack sizes. At least 8:1 preferably 10:1, reasonably confident you aren't gonna get squeezed and confident he's gonna pay you off if you hit or that ur gonna steal some pots when you don't.

[supafrey]

there's some missing information..

Do you mean the stack sizes? Because I removed them on purpose.

Would it help if they were included or is there something else you are on about?

How could the stack size ever NOT be the most important thing here?

[Ensano]

there's some missing information..

Do you mean the stack sizes? Because I removed them on purpose.

Would it help if they were included or is there something else you are on about?

stack sizes are defenately needed to be consider calling here..

1.50 in the pot and 1$ for you to call OOP.. you'd need to get AT LEAST 6.50 if you hit your set to make this profitable... so effective stacks should be 7-8$+ and villian should be able to get that much in postflop...

[MrDarling]

not realizing the importance of stack size to every decision we make on every street is a big leak.

You almost never get direct odds to call for set value. You will hit a set about 1 in 8, so even if villain min raise and you have to call $0.25 into a $1 pot you are bot getting the right direct odds. So here you are relaying on implied odds.

We're only going to hit 12% (1 in 8) from those time we sometime loose to a bigger set or a better.
sometimes we will win just his cbet or not even that
and sometimes we'll be able to stack him.
For those reasons to call for set value we usually want to call less then 10% of villain remaining stack.

[jimmer]

Ok Ok, I realise I've opened a whole can of worms here.

Yes, I am very much aware of how important stack sizes are and I worded my post wrong. I appologise.

In the above senario, out of everyone left in the hand, I had the smallest stack.

Mr Darling has pretty much answered the question, but I want to confirm his answer by putting some figures together as an example first.

Let me give this one a little more thought.

Thanks guys and sorry for the confusion.

[xDiamond_CutteRx]

OK, a lot of factors at play here, but I can give you a breakdown of when you need better implied odds or not.

You need better implied odds if:
1. You are heads-up.
2. You are out of position.
3. Your opponent is a better post flop player.
4. The smaller your pair (this is because smaller pairs are less likely to be an overpair, second pair, etc, and more likely to occasionally make set under set).

You do not need as good implied odds if:
1. The pot is multiway (because if you hit your set, you are more likely to get action with several players in).
2. You are in position.
3. You are a superior post-flop player. (Points 2 and 3 are derived from the fact that sometimes, you will not flop a set and win the pot anyway, either because your hand is best unimproved, or you manage to bet and win the pot against a better hand)
4. The bigger your pair (obviously because these hands win more often unimproved and because it is less likely to face set under set).


Now, it is hard to give exact numbers with which to apply these concepts. The "10x rule" is a good basic guideline, but I think a lot of people overestimate their implied odds with small pairs. Against a decent opponent who has position on me, I would want a lot more than 10:1 implied odds if I'm holding [2c 2s]. Something as good as 20:1 might almost be required against some opponents. If you're calling just for set value, I think anything under 10:1 is pushing it, but remember that if you have other ways of winning, your implied odds don't need to be as good, as I said above.

[gumbie]

bla bla bla

Didn't I just manage to say most of that in less than 3 lines?

[Jernej Zorec]

u also need bigger implied odds if raise comes from late position, actually
in most cases calling for set odds vs a late pos raiser is not a very good idea since his range is so wide he will rarely have a hand he can stack off with

[adpro]

If there are more callers, your 'hidden' set when hit will likely pay off quite well if the board doesn't bring much and someone has something like TT.

For this situation, that's an easy fold.

[jimmer]

welcome to the forum adpro

[tame_deuces]

Vs some aggros you can also flatcall and lead any flop, not the ones who are better than mediocre or the ones who got your number however.

[adpro]

welcome to the forum adpro

Thank you

Also, nice Avatar image! Guinness rules!!!